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Old 01-25-2010, 12:31 AM   #1
2Tired2Tango
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Default Windows 7 just became Vista part 2....

Well, I went against my own better judgement and spent a few days messing about with Windows 7 ... FWIW... I usually wait for the first service pack before doing stuff like this.

Anyway, the first install, $249.00 worth of Win7 Ultimate, went smooth as glass. If found all my hardware and came up more or less ready to go. First blush it's VERY impressive, it's clear, well thought out and quite easy to poke around in... So on to step 2, getting my data restored to my working partitions....

No problem, all the stuff copied back on from my NAS right away with no problems at all.

Now I'm getting pretty enthusiastic at this point...WOW, even Win2000 wasn't this easy at first.

Then it hit...

"Windows Explorer" ... "Server failed to execute" ... and I can't do a damned thing. It's running, I can click on stuff but all I get are error messages...

Ok, grab the XP based laptop get out on the net... I finds out the problem comes from a broken link to "My Documents"... which I'd moved to drive D:\Documents. So I gets into regedit and fixes the link in the "shell folders" and "user shell folders" keys and I get it up and running again....

Then it does it again!
And again!
And again!

The thing is insisting upon putting My Documents in d:\Contacts\Documents... a non-existent folder... and it won't stop doing it! Fine... create the directory it wants and deal with it later... now it wants D:\Contacts\Contacts\Documents... Ok, that's it shut it down before I deploy a cement block as a repair device.

A good night's sleep later and the decision is made....

Any operating system that easily broken --especially by something as trivial as moving a shell folder --will never grace any machine I have anything to do with. I've contacted my regular crew and let them know that I will be happy to Upgrade them from Win 7 to XP for half my normal rates... and will not be supporting Win7 until this problem is fixed.

It's too bad really... because aside from this one killer flaw, I really liked it.
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Old 01-25-2010, 01:50 AM   #2
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Your problem actually comes from the fact that you are doing things the old way and not the new way.

Welcome to Windows 7: The folder management is actually something you assign. So dont "move" the folder, assign it to be something else whatever you want, and include other folders in the library. Then make one folder the default folder for the library.

These folders can be any of the ones accesible by that computer. Any. That means that my documents could be a folder named "scooby snacks are Mary Jane" on a computer on the other side of globe.

Enjoy.
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Old 01-25-2010, 03:33 AM   #3
2Tired2Tango
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Your problem actually comes from the fact that you are doing things the old way and not the new way.
Hmmm... I don't think that's the case. The User folder (the one with my name on it) has a number of pre-defined shell folders. Each of these has a dialog tab to move the folder... what this is supposed to do is create the folder on a new part of the tree (drive D: in my case). The idea is the same as with XP... you can move your "my documnets", "my Music" etc. to a more convenient place. It was moving these folders to pick up an extensive pre-existing file tree that crashed the system.

Original path: c:\users\Tango\Documents
Right click "My Documents"
Select Properties -> Location
Click ->Move
New path: d:\Documents
Click -> OK
Copy files -> No
CRASH!

Any operating system that can be trashed that easily should not be on the market.

Quote:
Welcome to Windows 7: The folder management is actually something you assign. So dont "move" the folder, assign it to be something else whatever you want, and include other folders in the library. Then make one folder the default folder for the library.
Yes I get the concept of libraries... this is merely an aggregator, not the actual shell folders, but it is mighty handy. Silly thing is they used it in the "Open File" dialog... Strange.


Quote:
These folders can be any of the ones accesible by that computer. Any. That means that my documents could be a folder named "scooby snacks are Mary Jane" on a computer on the other side of globe.

Enjoy.
Yep I get that concept... but don't try it. Again... it was the simple task of moving the My Documents folder to drive D: which is just another partition on the same drive ...

Here's another way to see the same problem... Move your My Documents folder to an external hard disk, then unplug it... Good luck getting win7 to run again.

This is not an unknown problem, there are hundreds of sites all over the net that talk about it....

http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&so...oq=win7+Server

95,000 listings! It's nothing new.

Moreover, being in a grumpy mood... This isn't MY problem, you know. This is a damned serious flaw in the windows shell. It was there in Vista too... This is MICROSOFT's problem.
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Old 01-25-2010, 06:13 AM   #4
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Win XP FTW!!
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Old 01-25-2010, 08:15 AM   #5
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Win XP FTW!!
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Old 01-25-2010, 12:50 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by 2Tired2Tango View Post
Any operating system that can be trashed that easily should not be on the market.
That's the catch, for most people it has worked. I've even tested this feature on the RC build several times and helped get it set up for users interested in trying it.

What is interesting is the first link in your search seems to have the answer. Just about all the fixes involve changing user access permissions in some form or fashion, including the fixes listed by the MS reps. What sort of user account were you using out of curiosity?
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Old 01-25-2010, 01:25 PM   #7
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Sorry you had these issues. I've put win 7 now on 6 different computers that i've helped with relatives and friends and its been perfect. it puts vista to shame, and xp looks like something from the 50s
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Old 01-25-2010, 04:49 PM   #8
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That's the catch, for most people it has worked. I've even tested this feature on the RC build several times and helped get it set up for users interested in trying it.

What is interesting is the first link in your search seems to have the answer. Just about all the fixes involve changing user access permissions in some form or fashion, including the fixes listed by the MS reps. What sort of user account were you using out of curiosity?
I was working with admin priveledges at the time, Kougar. The target drive was freshly formatted and the files were copied in from the account I was working in at the time, so I owned them. This is a task I've done hundreds of times and never once had a problem, until yesterday.

Yes there is a fix for it, mostly you just fix the "Shell Folder" registry keys and away it goes... until next time. You may be correct that if you are working in a single partition environment like probably 95% of users, where you just install it and use the shell directories as given, you might never run into it... I honestly don't know.

Still, it does seem a lot of people are running into it... enough to cause a fair bit of chatter on the web and that is a concern. That Microsoft seems to be dealing in work arounds with no "We are working on it and there will be a hotfix soon" anywhere to be seen, only makes it worse. Since this is a known carry-over from Vista and it was a known issue there as well, you would think they'd have made a priority of fixing it...

Thing is, almost all my computers are partitioned into at least "System" and "Data" for the simple reason that fixing software screwups won't mean losing your data, so as I see it they are prime candidates for running smack into this problem and some are handling million dollar financial databases...

In good conscience I simply cannot install this software on someon else's computer knowing it has this huge ticking time bomb sitting there waiting to jump out and make a total mess of their week.
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Old 01-25-2010, 04:54 PM   #9
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Sorry you had these issues. I've put win 7 now on 6 different computers that i've helped with relatives and friends and its been perfect. it puts vista to shame, and xp looks like something from the 50s
Ever noticed how much stuff from the 50s is still working perfectly and how much brand new stuff never works properly at all?

Might be a hint in there someplace...
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Old 01-25-2010, 07:16 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by 2Tired2Tango View Post
Thing is, almost all my computers are partitioned into at least "System" and "Data" for the simple reason that fixing software screwups won't mean losing your data, so as I see it they are prime candidates for running smack into this problem and some are handling million dollar financial databases...
I agree. (See it can happen!)

With my very 1st Windoze crash (maybe it was DOS or even that IBM Windoze competitor long long ago) that corrupted the whole partition that we became aware that data was more important than the friggin' installed software. Who knew! We are engineers not MIS & they handled the mainframes anyway. And, somewhere in there some OS had the ability of partitioning the HDD, it occurred to us the partitioning was a very good idea. Let the OS kill itself but keep my data separate.

Also, trivial tasks for 1TB drives such as defragging with even 10% of the capacity used, take forever if you don't break it up into smaller partitions. No! I do not like my HDD getting flogged all night to defrag when I am not using the machine ... MTTF anyone???

Last, backing up data from partitions D: (I actually put all installed programs in the D: partition when give the option) thru whatever partition becomes very easy.

Although I must disagree on 1 point ... my '54 Chevy coupe looked cool, but I had burnt valves & broken trannies.
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Old 01-25-2010, 08:25 PM   #11
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2T2T,

Thats because you are no longer supposed to move it, but instead leave the shell folder, and all relating to the reg my documents exactly where it is, then simply include whatever the else you want inside of the my documents library. When you open the library it then shows all folders contents of what you have specified as the user. You can also set a default folder for the library to save to. Thus making the shell folder act as if it was the folder you were working with. You can also change the defaults on the fly to better organize your files.

It is a new way of doing things that is meant to ultimately make your workflow faster so long as you adhere to the new system.

I like it. Give it a chance, and you might as well.

p.s. you can remove the my documents folder from being included in the my documents library, and you can actually only leave one folder to be included in it that doesnt even have to be on a drive on the computer you are using. Im sure this has 10000 other applicationf for VM ware as well.
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Old 01-25-2010, 10:24 PM   #12
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2T2T,
Thats because you are no longer supposed to move it,
I really don't think you're getting your head around the significance of this error (or any other system killer, for that matter)... It isn't a matter of how we're supposed to do things... the big issue is that it's there at all.

At the level of technical expertise here, these are mere adjustments and registry edits, no biggy, just an annoyance.

But consider the whole other level, where people simply use computers without understanding much about how things are done or why. For these people (the vast majority of users) hitting on a flaw like this one is a total disaster.

You wanna tell an elderly woman that all her family pictures, journals and recipes --lovingly scanned and set up on her computer by her children-- have just been wiped out by an operation as ordinary as moving a folder?

Ask yourself if you want to sit in the CEO's office at a high end car dealership and explain to him how he lost his parts inventory database, warranty information, service records and callback schedules --millions in financial loss-- because some rookie oil changer tried to move his personal documents folder....

I'd invest in Kevlar if I were you.

You see this is the problem... you and I know how to avoid this stuff. Joe Average doesn't even know it's there... it's a ticking time bomb just itching to go off. I can't put this in anyone's machine knowing it's there... I'd be liable for their losses and, even if it never happened, I couldn't live with myself if I did. My conscience would drive me crazy....
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Old 01-25-2010, 10:32 PM   #13
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...we became aware that data was more important than the friggin' installed software.
Always has been.

But it's even more true today than ever. People have their whole lives in their computers and data losses can --and sometimes do-- devistate entire families.

Heck... even I with my double backups and careful maintenance would be totally screwed if anything ever took out my entire network. I'd be completely wiped out both morally and financially.

People don't understand this until it happens to them. Then guess who they come after to make compensation....

Actually this is one of my biggest grumbles with Microsoft from the very beginning... Why do I have to work within their enforced filing systems? Why not just give me a home folder with a "links" directory where I can drop in shortcuts to my own free form filing system... any drive anywhere, just make a shortcut to it. No stupid "My Documents" folder, no silly library tools... just a nice empty home folder to work from. (FWIW... this is one area where I think Linux got it right)
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Old 01-26-2010, 03:14 AM   #14
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Mr avg joe wouldnt delete my doc though. Even the oil change guy would usually copy it.

And if he was moving it from one drive to another, the default function is copy, not move.

Deleting/moving a system folder like my doc isnt something the avg joe does, and there is a reason windows asks you more than once these days if you want to delete a folder like that. (To ward off the avg joe)

Its only us more advanced who want to tweek and geek out the way we do things.
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Old 01-26-2010, 03:15 AM   #15
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I've made it a habit over the last few years to never store anything in any of the designated OS user storage areas (anything with a 'My' in the name). I'd rather keep my data safe(er) by going through a hierarchy of folders rather than save stuff in any of the 'My' folders for the sake of convenience. If you loose access to the OS for whatever reason, retrieving the data can be a problem, especially if encryption is involved. Application insistence on using the 'My' folders just pisses me off and is just asking for trouble. If i need to secure data, i can just use truecrypt or something and dump the data on a NAS. Speaking of NAS, 5+ drives in RAID 5 or 6, offers a fair deal of protection, it's not a perfect system, but it works well enough. Only alternative is offsite/online storage.

I've lost my fair share of data through MyLoss folders. Sure, manually going to another folder each time is a pain, but i'd rather my data went somewhere i know i can access with another computer in the event of an OS failure.

And i would love it if i could just create shortcuts to common folders and place the links in the MyDocuments folder... and access them with any application...

Linux being able to store /user data on another drive... certainly gets a thumbs up from me.
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